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Lecturers in Ghetto Theresienstadt

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Here is a list of all lecturers of the socalled University over the abyss in Ghetto Theresienstadt, among whom not only Regina Jonas, but also Leo Baeck and Viktor Frankl: http://sharat.co.il/lel/terezin/list.htm Austerlitz 88.72.4.143 13:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Here is some more information about the "University over the abyss": University Over The Abyss. There is a book about it, written by Elena Makarova, Sergei Makarov & Victor Kuperman. Austerlitz 88.72.4.143 13:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The titles of two lectures held by Regina Jonas are mentioned here:
Jewish Studies
What Is Power Nowdays Jewish Religion, the Power Source for Our Ego Ethics and Religion
Terezin Studies
Between Saving the Body and Soul: The Responsibilities of Jews to Each Other in Terezin

Austerlitz 88.72.4.143 14:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, rereading the source I have come to the conclusion that there have been THREE lectures on Jewish Studies mentioned by Ms. Makarova:
What Is Power Nowdays
Jewish Religion, the Power Source for Our Ego
Ethics and Religion

Austerlitz 88.72.24.226 10:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Different informations

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  • Prof. Judith Baumel, a lecturer and researcher from Bar-Ilan University who has also researched gender aspects of the Holocaust, says Jonas' story has been publicized only during the past decade. In the archive of Terezin (Theresienstadt) House in Kibbutz Givat Haim Ihud, an institution that was established to commemorate the Jews who spent time in Theresienstadt, the file that bears her name comprises no more than two pages that were translated from a single document found in the ghetto archive in the Czech Republic. Nevertheless, these two pages contain impressive information: a list of dozens of lectures given by Jonas to the Jews of the ghetto during the two years she lived there. The subjects about which she spoke include "The Jewish woman in the Tanach and the Talmud," "Humor in the Talmud," and "The religious commandments in Theresienstadt."

taken from A forgotten myth By Aryeh Dayan Austerlitz 88.72.4.143 16:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this quotation a 'violation of copyright'? I don't think so. Austerlitz 88.72.4.143 22:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • After her deportation to the ghetto-camp of Theresienstadt on November 5, 1942, she continued working as a "Seelsorger," (caregiver of the soul) as a member of the staff of Victor Frankl, the well-known psychiatrist. She was assigned to greet newcomers and boost their spirits and adjust to the cruel realities of overcrowding and starvation. She also continued "preaching" and was a member of the "Freizeitgestaltung" which organized lectures, concerts and performances to distract people from the daily misery.A list of 23 lecture topics survived, including topics such as women in Talmud, Bible and Jewish history, Halakhah, prayer, Sabbath observances and Jewish obligations in the camps. She maintained her contact with Leo Baeck who supported her throughout her rabbinic activities in Berlin, although he did not publicly endorse her struggle for recognition as a full rabbi. (His correspondence shows, however, that he helped her behind the scenes).

taken from St. Mary's college of Maryland:Rabbi Regina Jonas Memorial page. Austerlitz 88.72.24.226 10:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why I removed "Leader of Progressive Judaism"

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Because this is not correct on two accounts: (1) During her lifetime, she did not associate herself with "progressive Judaism". In fact, she maintained a "Liberal" lifestyle (German Liberal Judaism at that period cannot be considered "Progressive", as progressive was a term maintained for the Reform community); In addition, she was not a leader in the sense that in the Liberal establishment itself denied her from being ordained for a very long period, and even after she had been ordained she received no regular pulpit at a Berlin synagogue. (2) After her death/murder by the Nazis, she was not remembered and honoured as "a leader of Progressive Judaism". In fact, I think that the common (mis)conception was that Sally Priesand was the first woman-rabbi in the world, and as you write yourself, it was not until several years ago (after the fall of the Wall) that Jonas became well known to those dealing with questions of ordination of women or Berlin Jewish history. --Karpada 14:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Challenge of obvious fact?

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@Buidhe: Firstly, I'm not sure why you stated in your edit summary that Leo Baeck "wasn't head of the judenrat"...as it's kind of irrelevant if he was head or foot, he is still a controversial and uncontestedly recognized and cited example of a judenrat. So your blanking of this uncontested fact, is a little suspect, and has been reverted your edit.

Secondly with Jonas instrumental in the distribution of the questionnaire on the topic of suicide to the disorientated new arrivals to Terezin and her colleague Frankl's infamous recounting of speaking to one woman who could only see leaves of a tree from her room in particular "who knew she was being sent to the gas chamber", Jonas as the frequently stated colleague of Frankl in the camp 'psychohygiene division', was therefore involved in operation embellishment. Literally every able bodied person below the council had tasks assigned to them for the coming red cross inspection of the camp. So including its relevance in the Jonas article is pertinent and just made even more so by being Frankl's colleague.

Lastly, we really do need a survivor recipient of these pressed-into-hands questionnaires, at the moment of stepping off the train as a witness survivor account, would illuminate this chapter of history from those on the receiving end, who answered with something 'unorthodox' that wasn't, well to use Jonas' lecture title, chiming with "Judaism as the source of our ego". Keeping in mind that while everyone in Terezín had jewish ancestry that does not mean every one transported there, nor the sizeable minority simply did not exist, that were of an entirely different faith. Or none at all. Or something entirely different, as the woman by the tree that Frankl recounts. Definitely was not singing from the Zionist hymn sheet. Before being sent to the gas chamber. How do you think the 7,500 were selected for deportation out of Terezin, in operation embellishment by the Jewish Council? It was not by random, short straw. So what metric do you think they used?

I would very much like to know if any survivors of the questionnaire Jonas and Frankl distributed, answered in an unorthodox way. Do you think we'd ever find 1 survivor?

In any event, the fact that Baeck was a judenrat, Jonas' distribution of the questionnaire and a basic mention to operation embellishment preceding Jonas' deportation are relevant  and notable additions to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer (talk • contribs)

  • @Boundarylayer: All information must be factual and verifiable to reliable sources. The article also has to be neutral and not present contested allegations (i.e. presenting Frankl and Jones as Nazi collaborators) as if they are facts. The Theresienstadt Jewish Council's Transportation Department is discussed in reliable sources (and did not operate exactly how you describe, see Egon Redlich's diary or the recent German study of the ghetto by Wolfgang Benz, Theresienstadt: Eine Geschichte von Täuschung und Vernichtung), but AFAIK there is no evidence that either Frankl or Jones was involved in it. buidhe 01:31, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's interesting, thank you(and for reminding me, how to @Buidhe: that's a good free sky name, a chara..I'll check out Egon Redlich's diary, however to clarify is the suggestion found in this  source pg  11-12 Our Search for Meaning 2016, Charles Adam Eaton PhD, in gross error or simply slightly truncating, with the exact amount of time lapsing between people arriving and their. Having to answer frankl's questionnaire, more than an hour later? Or from what I gather, that source is they got off the train and were sent to this screening as the first port of call. Were the first question "they" asked,(Jonas and Frankl) to the shocked arrivals who "had to be met" was "do you feel your life is without purpose" 1)frequently 2)seldom 3)never. Which would be followed by an increasing litany of "probing" questions.
Apparently this "had to be done". No explanation why precisely is given and in no other camps did a rabbi or shrink meet you with loaded questions like this, especially not one who had been cracking skulls open not a year before and was jamming drugs in, leaving dead or dying jews twitching in totally unprecedented animal not least of all, nazi, medical experiments. I would really like to know any surviving people who were subject to this, full questionnaire, their fate, or for that matter anyone, who met frankl in a single one of the camps.
On re-reading your reply, it is 4am here, its the transporation departures you're referring to and my speculation from the unnamed lady, we know was sent to Auschwitz from Terezin. That she was definitely not on the council's "protection list" the jewish pantheists and athesists, the minority, were some of the first to be considered "expendable" within this particular camp hierarchy? I'll check out Redlich's diary, hope it dispells what struck me on reading the lady who could see the leaves of a tree, in "man's search for meaning".
Boundarylayer (talk) 04:55, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Boundarylayer, My concern is that the source that you're relying on (Eaton) appears to be self published. It probably wouldn't count as a WP:RS unless Eaton's doctorate is in the relevant field (history) and can be verified.
The workings of the Transport Committee are described at this link. It's certainly true that Zionist organizations tried to prevent their friends from being deported (see, eg. Hajkova's 2014 paper) but on the whole 1) the transport quotas were dictated by the Germans (including age, nationality, gender) and 2) many of the exceptions were based on occupation, being a military veteran, and family status rather than discretionary picks of the Transport Committee. For the fall 1944 transports, the lists were drawn up entirely by the SS.
We're still lacking any source that connects either Frankl's or Jones' activities to the "beautification". buidhe 07:20, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The source by Charles Eaton, it would be interesting to check with admins, as it doesn't fit exactly into the category of self published as it is hosted by the Oasis institute a senior citizen non-profit education center . While Eaton instead is of Univerity of New Mexico. Is still college level of course work/biography synopsis, really correctly under the self published category net here? Primary sources would still be a plus. Though would you ask an admin or point to some precedent that course work is considered an unreliable source? I'll fire off a mail to Eaton to find out what his primary source material is, though for present and future reference, knowing if presentations to college classes are deemed unreliable sources, would be piece of mind. https://www.abqjew.net/2016/08/?m=1 (search for Eaton)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer (talk • contribs)

  • @Boundarylayer: Please see WP:RS, WP:SPS (self-published sources) and WP:PRIMARY. Self-published sources can be reliable, but only if the author is an established expert in the field in question (in this case, history). Regular published sources with editorial oversight are preferred. For Wikipedia purposes, primary sources can be used but only if they're reliable; secondary sources are preferred because an expert has the opportunity to synthesize various pieces of evidence and/or judge the reliability of primary sources. buidhe 05:20, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does this professional paper/presentation to a non-profit college class, hosted by someone who took that class. Represent a self published source? https://www.hhimwich.com/files/viktor-frankl-our-search-for-meaning.pdf Eaton's presentation. Eaton's class was held by the Oasis institute in 2016(from what I gather it's a kind of open Uni for seniors). https://www.abqjew.net/2016/08/fall-2016-oasis-abq.html?m=1

Which specific sentence in WP:RS,SPS etc applies to this paper? Or the more generic case of reliable college presentations, in general?

Secondly on the Terezín transports, not in the well documented fall of 1944 but Spring 1944 the largest such under the control of the Jewish Council, there is nothing in Redlich's suggested diary in 1944 as he is focused in his writing about his newborn. Who sadly also didn't survive. The only circumstantial hunch that has led me to want to know about the selection process for the 'beautification' deception is this curious  passage written by Frankl, who was never in any other camp with young women present, other than Terezín. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/844875-the-story-of-the-young-woman-whose-death-i-witnessed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer (talk • contribs)

  • @Boundarylayer: If you want to add information that is from your own inferences, rather than directly taken from a source, that's original research and isn't allowed. There are a lot of places where you can publish your own opinions but this isn't one of them. College presentations are not edited by anyone besides the author, that's why they would be considered a self-published source and the rest of the guideline would apply. If you have any doubts about the reliability of a source, WP:RSN is the forum for such questions. I agree that it's an intriguing quote, but there are many possibilities (consider also that Frankl's memoirs are partly fictionalized). buidhe 07:01, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Ssecondly, from Kellenbach's research, Regina Jonas was a member of a specific group, with the singular motivation of  organizing cultural events, the very cultural events which were used to distract the interned and the inspectors alike during operation embellishment. To say there is no evidence she was involved is facetious. As under your criteria exactly who would be deemed to have been involved? everything 'normal' from a towns 'regular' culture council right down to the obvious fakery to everyone under the construction chiefs, were perverted if you will and co-oped into operation embellishment. As a member of the culture council, Jonas had involvement in operation embellishment. Agreed?

What is unknown and of great curiosity, is the use or outcomes of the questionnaires and other matters more in Frankl's sphere, that got perverted if you will, when the selection  processs for thespring 1944 transports came around, as who would know which inmates were deemed 'sick' and thereby made ellible for deportation? ...other than the opinion of doctor's like Frankl?

Lastly on the Terezín departures, Would  you disagree with the observation that the accounts which are available are quiet about the specifics of the selection process in spring 1944? That there is a dearth of material on this specific and controversial background to the 7,503 selected to be placed in train cars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer (talk • contribs)

  • Please see WP:SYNTH. Without a source specifically stating that Jones' efforts had anything to do with the "beautification", we can't say that they did. You can't add material that's not based on reliable sources. buidhe 08:00, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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